In today’s episode I’m chatting all about ethical business marketing with coach and copywriter Rachel Kurzyp.

Rachel spoke about:

• What is ethical marketing and how it applies to online business.
• How to identify common unethical tactics and why they are harmful to your business.
• Simple changes you can make to ensure your marketing is inclusive, accessible and sustainable.

Resources and people mentioned in the show:
Rachel website: www.rachelkurzyp.com.au

Rachel’s social platforms:
www.instagram.com/rachel_kurzyp
www.linkedin.com/in/rachelkurzyp

Rachel’s Podcast – The Rachel Kurzyp Show
www.rachelkurzyp.com.au/the-rachel-kurzyp-show

Rachel’s ‘Grow Your Business Based on Your Plant Persona Quiz’: www.rachelkurzyp.com.au/quiz

Connect with me

On Instagram @hayleymaxwellwrites

At www.hayleymaxwell.com

Hayley Maxwell  00:00

Well, hello, my friend, and welcome to episode 19 of the fierce impact podcast. Howdy, howdy, how are you doing? I hope that all is really well in your world. Today I have got a lovely guest with me. And that guest is Rachel Kurzyp . And we are going to be talking all about how to sell ethically and still make a great profit. Because yes, it is 100% possible. And so, Rachel is a marketing coach copywriter, speaker and teacher and she supports multi passionate people to build an aligned, ethical and profitable business without having to choose between their passions, compromise their values, or use unethical marketing tactics. Rachel has helped over 3000 creative entrepreneurs to gain financial freedom in their businesses, enabling them to make a positive contribution to the world. Now, this is a really meaty conversation. We chatted and I could have chatted for a lot longer. But really great conversation, we dove into all sorts of things, including, you know, what is ethical marketing? And how does it apply to online business, how to identify some of those common bro marketing style tactics and why they’re actually harmful to your business. And some simple changes you can make to ensure your marketing is inclusive, accessible and sustainable. So without further ado, here’s our conversation. So welcome to the Fierce Impact Podcast. Rachel,

Rachel Kurzyp  01:39

thank you so much for having me. I’m super excited to have this conversation with you.

Hayley Maxwell  01:45

Yeah, I’m  so excited that you’re here. Because I’ve been kind of following along with what you’ve been talking about for a wee while I listened to your amazing podcast as well. And I just love everything that you talk about and share in terms of ethical marketing, and how to sort of market in a more respectful way. So I’m excited to dive into this conversation today. But first of all, would you like to just tell us a little bit more about your business journey and sort of how you got to where you are today?

Rachel Kurzyp  02:15

Sure, well, I’m a typical millennial. So I’ve done like all of the things and continue to do all the things. And the reason why I ended up moving into the small business space is because at a nine to five, I was not able to like explore and create and learn and get curious about brands and different ways of like marketing and copywriting. Like in one role, and it was always like, No, you just have to talk like this or sell like this, or, you know, create like this. And I was always kind of itching to do something different. And now, in hindsight, it was pretty clear that I don’t agree with a lot of the, like business values and ethics and ways of marketing back then. But I even though I knew this idea of like ethical and unethical marketing, because I have a degree, I have three degrees, I have a degree in journalism, business management, and international development. And through that is a lot to do with like, people and resources and marketing. And I just always was like, Oh, I don’t want to do it this way. But I thought like everyone else is happy with this. And this is how we’ve been taught. So I kind of went along with it. But the more I got into it, the more I didn’t feel comfortable. And I knew that there was a different way to do things. And so because I liked hanging out with a different businesses and people l, I kind of moved into my own business. And I created what I called like a bridging job where I was working in not for profits at the time, and doing a lot of communication strategies and copywriting and marketing and creating content. And so then I just started consulting for them on the side and built up a reputation that way. And I was still doing that quite a bit for the last year of my nine to five job before I left it and I remember leaving my nine to five job and just feeling so free and elated and it was just like, oh my god, yes, I could finally do whatever the hell I want. And I’m not saying that it hasn’t been hard because it has. But I feel like the last few months, I’ve really come back to like, why I want to do business this way why I like to support my coaching clients in the way that I do. And it really is around this idea of like ethical marketing and expertise and showing up as your authentic self like what the hell do those things mean? And the more I kind of like hang out in this space, the more I’m like yes, this has always kind of been there in the background. But I don’t know about you and maybe some listeners, I feel like sometimes we go in roundabout journeys, and I feel like I’ve kind of come in a roundabout I’ve grown but I feel like I’m kind of in the same spot but a different person.

Hayley Maxwell  04:52

Yeah, I think that’s so true. I think you know, we can start out doing one thing and we sort of evolve into something else and then sometimes move might come back to, you know, our origins. And so I think it’s always a continuous involvement. When we’re in corporate life. So often we are told, right, this is what you’ve got to be, this is what you’ve got to do, this is the next project you’re working on, you know, this is what your job description is. But when you become your own boss, you know, you are making all of those decisions yourself about what it is that you can do. And I think sometimes that’s a little bit like, oh, actually, I can do kind of, you know, within the realms of my expertise and knowledge, I can do anything that I want to do, I don’t have to stay in this little container anymore. And so in terms of, because obviously, today, we’re going to be talking about how to sell ethically and still make a really good profit, which I totally believe is possible. But in terms of defining ethics, or ethical marketing, I think it’s a good place to always start with understanding what your definition of that is, because obviously, we hear particularly in the online space, the word ethical marketing, being thrown around quite a lot at the moment. And so I always like to understand what someone’s own definition of of that is, because obviously, ethics is, is very subjective to each of us as well. So could you share a little bit about that?

Rachel Kurzyp  06:29

Yeah, I think this is a great place to start. And I love that you’ve asked this question, because I am getting asked a lot by my coaching clients and community will define it for me, right? Sure. And you know, I will do that for you in a second. But I also want to preface this by saying, kind of going from your point, then, you know, when you move into the business space, you’ve got so much freedom that I think, because we’ve been conditioned to live and work in a very, like corporate nine to five World School kind of gets us ready for work. It’s all very like structured and process, you need to sort of follow what you’re told, and you don’t really go, I guess, go against the grain or ask the authority, why they’re doing things that way that when you get into the business space, I think a lot of us are really excited by freedom in air quotes. But then go, what does that actually mean? And then again, we have to define everything for ourselves, we have to make all those decisions ourselves, I think, this kind of place not saying there’s anything wrong or bad, I was the same where I’m like, oh, freedom, whoo. And then being like, actually, I’ve got nothing but myself to fall back on. Like, when I put something out there. I can’t say Oh, my boss made me or that’s the organization’s like regulations is like, oh, no, it’s just me, and everyone knows that. And so ethics, for me, I think most of us would agree. There are universal ethics and principles, and, you know, behaviors that guide us in our life, things like you know, don’t steal, don’t bully, don’t harass people, you know, those kinds of things that really remove people’s like autonomy, power of choice, you know, choice over like how they move their body or how they move in the world, I think we can all agree on those things. You know, don’t take away anything from someone else, when they’ve worked hard to get that or they’ve made, you know, something for themselves, those kinds of things. And then there are lots of like values placed on that different people with different backgrounds and religious beliefs and upbringings will have different values. And so I think, when it comes to ethics and business, the general kind of consensus is that unethical marketing is when we take away from people’s choice, people’s power, which is when we do different marketing strategies and tactics in a manipulative way, when we know, we’re actually really like hijacking people’s brains and stopping them from feeling comfortable and safe to take a step back and make an informed choice. So perfect example is things like countdown timers them in themselves, you know, the little clocks that countdown, 10 days left, you know, 59 minutes left, etc. I don’t believe any strategies or tactics are unethical with themselves, but it’s the way that they’re used. And so for a lot of us, we sort of thinking, you know, ethical marketing beat not to use countdown timers, you totally can, but a lot of people were using them in a way that really makes people think of, Oh, my God, time’s running out that, you know, if I don’t get this, I’m not going to be successful. If I don’t click now, like, what happens if I miss out and what it is, is tapping into our natural conditioning, which is scarcity. So we’re used to having to look for things and know that they’re scarce. So a lot of people and I use this example because I think it’s relevant things like honey and salt and sugar in the natural world, you know, are scarce and so for a lot of us, we’re conditioned to want to seek those things out and to hord them or get access to them. So these kinds of really natural behaviors, we’re doing everything right, we’re not doing anything wrong, we’re not responding incorrectly. I think a lot of people are like, Oh my god, I got duped, like, this is all my fault. No, you’re responding in a really natural way, if someone else manipulating you, I’m quite happy to do that. So things like countdown timers doing that. And then of course, three days later, we get given the same $27 ad on Facebook, like, hang on, you told me that this is going away or as a one time offer. And so I think there’s so much kind of to do with this. And you have to define what your own ethics and values are yourself. Like I said, they are the universal ones, there are different tactics and strategies that I think we’re becoming more aware of that we know can be used unethically. But I think the problem is, again, coming back to this freedom piece that we’re looking to others to help us to find what our own ethics and values are. And unfortunately, we need to do this work ourselves. Because what I might think, is okay, ethically, you might not think that and other listeners might not think that and that is completely okay. So I think there are some really for and against kind of us, we can all agree. But for most of us in the business space, it’s a lot of shade of gre y. And that’s when it kind of come in conflict, or we’re not really sure what we should be doing. So unfortunately, yeah, I wish I could tell you the exact definition what you shouldn’t shouldn’t be doing. But that, again, will be taking away your power and your autonomy. And I want people to feel powerful and empowered and informed to make the best decisions in their business. So I think by talking about this topic, it gets people to start thinking about what feels good for me, what doesn’t feel good for me? And how do I want my clients and community to think, feel and do after every interaction with me, I think if you can get really clear on answering those three questions, your ethics are coming through in that and your values, whether you define it as that or not.

Hayley Maxwell  11:54

Absolutely, yeah, I really love that explanation of it. And I think that a lot of the time, it comes down to the intention behind the tactic that we’re going to use, for example, you know, with just drawing on your countdown timer example, there are a lot of people out there who actually find countdown timers, very helpful. In order to remind them that they do only have a certain amount of time left. And so if you’re using it in a way that is there to support people, and to give them that that reminder, without the extra sort of pressure and without the you know, suddenly reappears again in three days, and you still got you know, the same amount of time on all of those sorts of things, then, then I think that, then that’s okay. It’s the intention behind a lot of these actions, and also sometimes using some of the tactics without really understanding the potential harm that they can have on people as well. So seeing that other people are using them, and then thinking, right, that’s part of a launch strategy, perhaps that I could implement next time, it seems like this is working well. But and then just using it sort of blindly without critically thinking about, you know, well, what is what is the impact on my audience of this? Is this actually respectful to them? Does this help them to make an informed decision for themselves? So I think it’s, it’s really starting to be more critical in the way that we actually look at some of the tactics that are out there. For us in marketing.

Rachel Kurzyp  13:42

I agree. And I love that you brought up intention, because that’s something that I wanted to talk about next. Because I think for a lot of us, we can make and I’m guilty of this, we can become short sighted. And we can be like, Oh, but um, you know, someone has taught me like you said, these strategies, these tactics, everyone’s using them, and they get results, and they do they do get results. But then I sort of think well, actually, like you said, what was the intention behind it, and not all results are created equal. And I would rather get the same results but have a really intentional considered thoughtful launch strategy, or approach to sales and marketing and know that I haven’t harmed any of my people to the best of my ability, because no one is perfect, and we’re always learning and get the same results then to make everyone feel like crap. And we also know with psychology and statistically as well, that if you get someone to buy something, and they’re buying from a place of fear, scarcity uncertainty that really you know, we feel it in your body, that really kind of nervous system like Oh god, I better do this or I don’t feel good, you can just feel it right. They’re less likely to complete the program or the course or the turn up or to give it their all, they’re less likely to get the results that you wanted them to. And so I think for most of us, if we sat down, we’d be like, No, we’re decent human beings, and we want our clients and customers to get results. And you know, we want to have a successful business and we want to make money. And when we break it down, we’re like, actually, like, Are my clients and customers truly getting the best results? Are they signing up because they feel great. And yes, nervousness is a part of it. I often talk about that my clients, so they feel super nervous and super excited. That is completely different to feeling like you’re wrong. And this person is suddenly going to save you or has all the answers, because let’s be honest, none of us have all the answers, there is no one way to do things, there is no secret yet. Again, these kinds of tactics are then surrounded by the key messages, which again, I was talking about is tapping into the psychology. So the intention behind it. And I think, again, we’ve been really conditioned and taught that if we stray from this, that we’re not going to get the results that oh, well, then you know, you’re doing yourself a disservice and your clients a disservice because people don’t respond unless X, Y and Z happens. That is not true. And it is not true for me, my business. I’ve been doing this for over 10 years. Now, it’s not true. For hundreds of clients that I’ve served and 1000s of people that I’ve taught, it’s just not true. But again, it kind of keeps us trapped in this cycle, right? Where we’re being told, No, everyone else is doing it. So it’s completely fine. Look, it gets results, it gets my clients results. Look, your business is getting results. Now, why would you want to change anything, and it’s just so sad that we’re all trapped in that because like I said, when we sit down and ask ourselves these questions like, hang on, this isn’t right. And you know, all of us, me included over the last few months, again, I’ve gone through this sort of period of like, oh, like the I can keep doing things better and learning. And I’m still letting go of some of the things I’m taught and finding myself doing really turned off by a lot of things that are being shared. Like every time I see someone only selling with income play marketing, which is only talking about money. So the Instagram pies, I made a million dollars in six weeks when I was asleep for five and a half of those just all these damn wild claims to say substantiate, and you’re like, I’ve been doing this for like 10 and a half years. I know that is not true. So you’re either lying, or you’re excluding so much of your story. And it is not. It’s just not going to translate to a lot of people in this whole belief. And you know, again, messaging, if I’ve done it, you can do it too. And I’ve used this in the past. And I’ve changed that messaging because I’m realizing that that is not helpful to my clients, because everyone is different. And a lot of my clients do get similar results. But again, they don’t want the exactly same as what I’ve got, they want what they want. And so even if it’s not necessarily like you’re not saying it’s unethical, it’s still not honoring the human being in front of you. So even if you’re like, Well, I want ethics, whatever. It’s like, do you want to honor the person in front of you, because if you do that, again, they’ll get better results. And your business will get all the things you want money, reputation, scale, everything like that. So I think recently to start seeing the human being in front of us and being like, if I was fully having a conversation with them right here right now in real life, would I literally be saying to them, Come on girl, like you don’t want a million dollars like signups my thing like this is the best way this is the secret? No, we would not be talking to someone like that. So why do we think it’s okay, online, I have no idea.

Hayley Maxwell  18:27

There are three things that I just want to pick up on, I’ve got to try and remember all three of these things that you just talked about there. And so the first one was around us being essentially in marketing, not wanting to stray from the path that others have said, is the holy grail, you know, these are the things that you have to do if you are successful. And I think there’s a big part of that, that does come down to that fear side of things that if I want to launch a product or a service, then I need to follow what this online guru is telling me because if I don’t do it to a tee, I’m not going to have the outcome or get the results. And so I think that keeps us stuck. Because it makes us feel like oh, well I might not necessarily agree with everything, but this is the way we’re supposed to do it, you know, and air quotes again. So therefore, I should just stick to this because I don’t want to risk not earning enough money to keep the roof over my head, etc, etc, etc. The second point was in relation to that the income claim marketing and always talking about the monetary side of businesses, I think, you know, we’re fixated on the money side of things of marketing our services using the money message essentially, there is so much more that is important to people other than the money side of things, the money side of things. is a really easy one to pick on, essentially, you know, that’s, that’s easy for us to go yep, you know, you can make more money you can, you know, have five figure months you can all of these things. But actually, there’s so much more than that, you know, there’s the intangible side of things that you can’t physically see, it’s the confidence that maybe you’re giving your your clients could be about, you know, having more time and space to maybe do more of the work that you really want to do, or to have that headspace in your working week, you know, there’s, you know, obviously messaging around being able to spend more time with, with loved ones. So there’s all these intangible parts of messaging that I think is really not given the same emphasis, essentially, you know, we are so focused on know, people are only going to buy my thing, if it means that they are going to make more money. And I think that that is just I think it’s a shame, because I think there’s so much more than than money essentially available to us. .

Rachel Kurzyp  21:04

I agree and I also want to point out here that for a lot of us, and I know, for my clients in particular, we need to eat, we need to take care of our families roof over our head, like, we understand that. And, you know, there’s something that we need to speak to, and a lot of my clients do come to me and say, like, I need to make this amount of money, except it’s always, and I wish to do it this way. And I want to feel good when doing this. And I want my customers and clients to do X, Y, and Z, they’re very joined together, my clients never come in to say, I want to make more money, full stop. There is always something there. And I think for a lot of us money is a reflection of everything else that we’re doing, of how we’re connecting with our audience of how were supporting, like our clients of how we’re representing ourselves and our values and our principles, like the mission that were, you know, able to achieve through our business is often a reflection of that, and it’s not an end in itself. And so I agree with you, it’s such a missed opportunity. And I think a lot of people are really bored by that messaging, too, because we know there’s so much nuance behind that, and how much money do you spend on ads to make that million dollars? And how big is your team? And also, there’s a lot of privilege in that because again, the messaging, you know, money’s available to everyone, all you need to do is work for it all of these other unethical, kind of like tropes and stories kick in. And I think a lot of us, again, are becoming very aware of being like, well, actually, no, I love that x person is able to make money, I think all of us can agree with money and talking about income is irrelevant sometimes. And we love the fact that other people, particularly women, women of color, women, different backgrounds are making money, I think that’s fabulous. But also, you know, some of my clients are pregnant and working full time jobs and only have five hours and they went to their business first other clients who, like a child free and have a partner that can support them, or, you know, I’ve already got it my business and creating a second one, those two positions are so different, and the strategies and tactics and the way they get money in the way they think about it or run their businesses are so different. And again, just focusing on the money they want to gain is not actually helpful for them, because the way in which they want to gain money or able to gain that income is completely different. And again, this is where honoring the human being in front of you comes in, because then you’re like, Oh, I can’t really say that. Oh, that that actually is not going to really work or just, you know, handing out a tactic to all of your clients are saying this is the only tactic you can use, you’re actually like, this is kind of silly, because if x y&z was different in my own life, it wouldn’t apply to me. But again, it’s coming back to this whole like, well, if it worked for me or work for you, and people wanting to be seen as that expert, or again, moving into different types of business models that perhaps aren’t ready for. And the only way that they can move into those because again, they want to get more money. And I’m saying air quotes is by moving into a coaching and teaching position. And they’re not actually qualified in any way to do that. So the only way they can coach or teach is to tell someone exactly what they’ve done and help someone replicate it. And again, there are ethics within that. And so I think this topic is really interesting to talk about, because there’s so many different ways that we can look at it from messaging to offer creation to the business models we’re creating to just the general kind of like a tropes that were really just dishing out to people online and people were coming in and you know, when they’re starting business, you’re more likely to kind of listen to those because again, have that feel like well, I need to do what everyone else is doing or what I’ve been told to do, otherwise my business is going to fail. And that in itself, just like you said, keeps us stuck in these kinds of cycles. And I always say like it’s really hard to see the ocean when you’re swimming in it. And sometimes we really do need to take a step back and be like, Oh, I can see it more clearly. Now and then you can come back in and make different decisions.

Hayley Maxwell  25:03

Yeah, exactly. I love that. So let’s jump into some of the typical marketing tactics that you see that you think we need to maybe look at for our own businesses and make changes to what would you say some of these are,

Rachel Kurzyp  25:18

I think they come under the heading fake it till you make it, which also comes under this idea of need to be seen as an expert, which is also a topic I talk about, I realized recently, the two are very intertwined, which is funny that I’ve been talking about both of them. So think, under this kind of topic, there comes a lot of intention. So a lot of things like, Well, I just need to make money fast, I just need to put something an offer out there, I just need to get like clients, I’ll figure it out as I go. This messaging kind of works. For other people, I’m like in a rush, I would just like copy templates. And so from there, you get a lot of the intention. And strategy is very much like short term gain, and not actually sustainable business. So you kind of don’t realize that, yes, you might be getting clients and seeing some success, but at what kind of costs your own values mission and the cost of the human being in front of you. Because again, if we want to sustainable, profitable, successful business, we need to care about a human beings and our relationships for years to come. Right. So the strategy is kind of already is very short term gain. And that’s when I think a lot of people start to, I guess, like, layer up some of these tactics. And because of strategies like short term game, it all makes sense to them. So you will see the income claim marketing, you will see, like, you know, the countdown timers, you will see a lot of messaging around, you know, like the secret, you know, this is what, like I’ve done, I’m going to show you the one way to do this, all of that kind of stuff. And what it all kind of saying to you all together is I have figured it out, like I’ve cracked the code, or I am special, or I have this like information that no one else has, and that you need to buy from me to get access to that. And then what’s happening for a lot of people is like they’re joining these programs, courses, workshops, etc. Getting in and think for a lot of people, they’re like, Oh, this is what like this is not new information, and also are actually realizing they’re just being sold into the next thing. And the next thing and the next thing. So that’s called the ascension business model. And there’s actually nothing unethical with that business model in itself. But again, the strategies and tactics so you get into this workshop and realize it’s actually a sales pitch for their course, then you might buy the course he’s like, Oh, well, I would still really need the answer when he got half of the answer, then you buy the course and you being sold into the mastermind. And then before you realize that you might have only wanted to spend $50 in Australian dollars, and now we spent like 5000 Australian dollars, and you still don’t have quite the answer. It’s actually this whole kind of gatekeeping process. And so the reason why I’m answering your question in such a large kind of answer like this, there isn’t one thing because I actually think it’s some of the beliefs. And again, I want to point out the system, I don’t want to come after individuals, there are many individuals deliberate entrepreneurs that do know better and continue to do this. But speaking to the listeners of this podcast, and you know, our peers and friends, I don’t think anyone’s out there, trying to like gatekeep information, trying to rip people off, trying to get rich at the expense of others, I would say that no one is intentionally doing that. But because of these beliefs that we’re buying into which hold every day, then the strategies and we’re like, oh my god, we need to you know, I need to get money quick. So then I can use this messaging that I’ve made a million dollars in my sleep, and all of these kinds of things, then allows us to kind of do the tactics and we like, go, okay, cool, I’ll just do this and this and this. And I want to do it for a short amount of time, just so I can get this money or just so I can get this reputation or just so I can get on that podcast. And then before we know we’re like locked into that. And so I think there is no part of the puzzle that you can just address and move away. I think you need to like address the whole kind of situation in itself, because that’s why I guess I’m personally getting frustrated with a lot of focus on solo tactics, like don’t use charm pricing, which is, you know, 49 as opposed to 50. Don’t use countdown timers because like you said a lot of the time, things like that are helpful. I know someone DM me the other day and said does cold DMing actually work and I had sent a DM to her because she had engaged with a lot of my content over six months like emojis talking about my dog, PC, etc. She’d been engaging and liking all of my content for my workshop and I’d simply sent her a message saying like, Hey, just wanted to let you know that I am running this workshop. quick sentence about it. If you’re interested, let me know. And then she’s like cold, you know, does it actually work? I was like, I’m not that’s not cold. DMing That’s not called DMing, at all. And that’s right, because like, actually, a lot of my people, I’ve just sent out this message, six out of the 10, have joined and said, Thank you so much for the reminder. So again, these kind of blanket statements. So if you can’t DM anyone, you can’t cold like that. Why are we talking about that is the intention and everything behind that. And if that didn’t work for her, that’s fine. But I’m not going to change that strategy in that tactic, because of the intention and the results that I know it gets for the jury of my clients. So to answer your question, it’s, it’s a whole bunch of these things. And now that, you know, a lot of listeners are becoming aware, and hopefully, this episode we’re hoping to, you’ll start to see it everywhere. And then you can really assess how it feels to you or how you think it’s being done. And the intention behind it. Obviously, we never know, because we can only look things externally. But you know, take what kind of feels good to you. And if something doesn’t feel quite right, really sit down and try and figure out what it is about the email sequence or a part of or the sales pitch at the end of the workshop, or someone DMing you that didn’t feel right.

Hayley Maxwell  31:05

Yeah, that said, I think it’s it is about noticing how you’re feeling when you’re engaging with people’s content or engaging with other people’s tactics, or even when you’re doing things yourself, and just asking yourself, Why am I feeling this particular way about it? And just like you say, sort of sitting with it and trying to figure that out, and then asking yourself, Is there a different way that would feel better to me, and that would be maybe better to my audience based on what I’ve discovered by sort of sitting and sitting within this as well. And I think that, you know, you just talked about the fact that, you know, I don’t think any of us are, like you said, intentionally doing this, we’re not doing it to sort of the majority of us, I would say 99% of us, you know, we’re not doing it to intentionally dupe anyone it is again, just reiterating that point that we see other people that we really look up to ourselves in business doing a lot of these things that they’re layering, you know, it’s layer upon layer. And so we replicate that as part of our business, but it is totally okay to when maybe something isn’t feeling as good for you, both being the receiver of it, as well as doing it yourself, is to actually, like you said, to step back and ask yourself, why and what is it about this and I think that’s maybe the first step that we kind of all need to take is to actually be more critical in our in our thinking around some of the tactics that we are using and how we’re layering them them up. And so how do people go about sort of spotting some of these these tactics, I guess, that we sort of look at and might need to adjust,

Rachel Kurzyp  32:53

I think it’s if you’ve been following someone for a while. And a big flat, like a red flag for me is, and I’m just gonna use the coaching industry, because I’m a coach, and I feel like I can speak to that. So I have other peers and communities, I’m like, oh, like, great, they’re killing it, you know, I’m gonna agree with all the tactics, but things are good. And then after a while, I’m like, hang on, I don’t know, anyone that’s worked with them, that is having any measure of success. So it’s like the hierarchy, they’re always at the top of the mountain, and everyone else is at the bottom of the mountain trying to figure out how they can get to the top. And occasionally, the gates open, they’re getting, you know, a paid past the top to hang out with them. But then they’re kind of slip back down the mountain. And I think for a lot of people listening to this, you would know those people were like, hang on, they’re talking all the time, about hundreds of clients making so much money, you know, the posting videos from the beach and the bath like all this kind of what we call like fabricated authenticity. I’m like, but where are their peeps? Where’s the community, like, no one is coming to me saying, Oh, my God, you actually need to work with experts, and they’re fabulous, or I work with them got incredible results. And yes, you can go to the sales page, and you look at these testimonials, but these testimonials are curated and wild. So it’s literally testimonies only include that person that again, followed their exact process and made a million dollars. And then for a lot of them, they are now teaching that exact process and program to their people. And it becomes an MLM. And even though that’s very much in the coaching industry, and I think we’ve all kind of seen and heard that I’m actually still seeing that in the service based industry too though, people you know, just working with others or peers or kind of getting templates and then just building a business based off the business model and the templates and processes of others. To me that is the same and so I think once you start to see that you’re like hang on if if no one that’s working with this person is going on to make sales or you know, if it’s a program social media and you never see them on reels or anything like that you’ve got to wonder what they’re being taught and why that they aren’t seeing The similar or same results, because that was what was sold literally on the sales page and on the packet, right. So technically, there should be many hundreds of people that are like that. And I know people in my community for all different industries, the ones that are incredible at what they do, you know, all of the people that have worked with them, they’re always singing their praises, they’re having incredible results themselves, they’re more than happy to talk about the business owner, they work with many times, all of that kind of stuff. And so that is the first kind of red flag, because if you don’t know anyone, or can’t find it any kind of like, non crafted marketing message about how credible that person is, and it’s not just, you know, asking a few friends, like, Oh, would you work with Rachel? Or would you work with Sam? Or like, do you know, does anyone work with Heather, and you’re not able to get information. And then when you actually break it down to start to look at their sales tactics, you kind of realize why, because it’s all about them. This is where I think, you know, this idea of like celebrity entrepreneur has really come from it’s all about them. And again, it’s quite similar to the corporate business model with the CEO, you know, the person at the top, who supposedly knows best does best is better than everyone else. And you’re just meant to blindly follow. And I think, again, we haven’t realized that a lot of the business space is really taking a lot of the patriarchy and capitalism along with it. And that’s why we’re seeing business owners kind of at the top, and you sort of look around like, Well, why are some people saying exactly the same message, exact same thing, but they aren’t getting the results in just one person keeps getting rolled out every time as the go to person A lot of the time, it’s because they’ve had some privilege, they’re probably using some unethical marketing tactics. And they also really don’t talk to the true nuanced story of how they came to get there, or what’s happening in their business. And I love them, like I said, of faking it to their maker, you know, selling the idea of like meeting teams, making certain amount of money, being able to go on expensive holidays, all of that kind of stuff. So again, to kind of answer your question is really about curiosity, discovery, and really critical thinking, because again, I can’t tell you why you should or shouldn’t follow someone or work with someone not that’s up for you to decide. But I think if you kind of ask yourself, honestly, about some of the people you might follow, you’ll be like, Oh, how have they truly got to where they’ve got? Is it? Like, are they being honest about that, and most of them aren’t, because we’re told to hide parts of our humanity to make ourselves more approachable or successful. And by doing that to ourselves as business owners, then again, we’re more likely to do it to others, to censor others, to expect others to change parts of their humanity to fit into a system. And again, for a lot of business owners were then putting it back onto our customers and clients.

Hayley Maxwell  37:49

Yeah, absolutely. And I think there was an I cannot remember for the life of me who I heard it from, but it’s about, you know, always, when we’re looking to invest in someone, it’s about also, always looking at who taught our teacher, right. So always looking not just at the person that we’re interested investing, investing in, but also looking at the people that they have learnt from, because that also tells us a lot about, you know, the way that they might work with you the practices, the belief systems that they have, and you know, and so much more. And I can’t remember who it was that said that. But I, I think that is such an important point, as well. And part of that kind of critical thinking process that we need to sort of be doing more of,

Rachel Kurzyp  38:39

yeah, I think it’s such a good point. And it’s something that I do as well. And I also have kind of like a list of, you know, things that if I see someone doing, you know, I’m not going to go after him, I’m not going to call them out, you know, I’m just going to keep calling them in with my own content, but I wouldn’t work with them . So I had a few people as an example request to speak on my podcast, the Rachel Kurzyp show, and I said no, immediately, because the only marketing tactic that they’ll leading on was income claim marketing, and I don’t want someone on my podcast that he’s only going to talk to income claim. And we’re saying things like, You need to believe your six figure business owner before you are, that if you work hard, you’ll get money. I don’t believe in any of that. And I can tell just by that marketing, messaging, you know, the values and stuff are out of alignment. So, no, they’re not getting a space or voice on my podcast. And I think we can do the same with who were wanting to hang out with. And also I think you need to look at the people that are also joining the programs or courses or coaches. So, you know, if you’re looking at even a copywriter or service provider thinking like Who else has worked with that service provider for that copywriter? Like, you know, are they ethical? Did you know that kind of stuff because again, I’m seeing you know, like with anything, there are huge pockets of us who really care about ethics and are questioning the way things being done, there’s so many of us, you can go work with business owners, and hang out in spaces with people who have similar views to you or that challenge you and help you grow. And I think that’s also really important, but just the same as looking at who taught that person. So who they hang out with, because that’s also going to be who they’re influenced by, particularly in the online business space, because it can get really insular, like, really, really quick. And I

Hayley Maxwell  40:27

think also, a lot of it actually comes back to being really clear on what our values are, and really standing strong in our values so that we don’t sort of get steered sort of off the path, it’s actually stopping and saying, actually, you know, these are my values, does this align with the values that I have, personally and professionally? Is this going to support me to be regarded in this particular light that I want to be regarded in? So I think it’s always coming back to that as well?

Rachel Kurzyp  41:05

Yeah, such a good point, you definitely need to do the work yourself. And I think it can be hard sometimes, because we’re so in it. So like, something that I’ve done recently, and I need to continue doing is I remove and mute anyone that sort of triggers that in me that response, like I openly talk about this all the time, like, Oh, my God, you know, when you have those days, like, I should be doing X like, no, why? Because I’m being triggered, it’s a natural response, I don’t get angry at myself, I say, No, I’m gonna put a stop to that trigger and take care of my nervous system. So there’s doing things like that. It’s like asking yourself questions and the feelings like I always get my clients to write down all of the times that they had a good sales experience or customer service, everything from like getting a haircut, all the way through to business, and all the times they did it and to look at the commonalities between them, and how they made them feel, and the questions that were asked and the way that they were spoken to, the way that they were treated, all of those kinds of things. And then there is definitely a lot of work around that defining your values and your mission and your goals and like long term kind of practices that you want. And like I said, answering that kind of question like what you want your clients to think feel or do after interacting with you. So I never want my clients to feel shamed, or like, you know, to be triggered into running off, like that scare kind of fear, nervousness, you know, I never want them to think I need Rachel because otherwise I’m going to fail, because I believe wholeheartedly that all of my clients already on the path of success already generating success for themselves. And I’m simply able to help them do that, like faster or with more ease or whatever way that they would like me to support them, but they don’t need me. And I know that’s like a wild claim for coaches, because everyone likes to say that everyone is needed. No, no one needs me, no one needs a copywriter. No one needs a photographer, they just help us do other things, you’re already going to have success. I think that kind of belief also allows you to see the human in front of you. And also to see yourself and trust in yourself. Because I think a lot of this kind of conversation again is, like I said, comes back to the start of entering the business space and being told you’re not good enough. Don’t know enough can’t make it without someone else. No, you can do it all by yourself. So if you trust and have that self belief, then you’re more likely to like trust and believe that others know what’s best for them. And the things that they need and actually listen and respect when they say yes or no. Or can we or can we tweak this where I think a lot of people are just feeling like they are the teacher and people just want to be spoken at that is not true. A lot of people want to these days, be working with people in a more collaborative peer approach and less of that authoritative, hierarchical kind of teaching down someone, I think that is long gone.

Hayley Maxwell  44:00

And so what are some other simple changes that people can make, to make sure that their marketing is sort of, you know, inclusive and accessible and sustainable going forwards?

Rachel Kurzyp  44:12

Yeah, I think the big one, like I said, is just the shift that, you know, you as a business owner have got this and that the people in front of you have got this and that you’re simply there to like, guide them or to be a support and that you don’t know what’s best for your clients. So I took as a cooperating you’ll get this. Hell you know, I’m always like, get inside the head of your dream clients, and I’m all for that. But never do I ever think that I know my clients better than they know themselves. And so when they do say things like, Oh, I wish this was included, or I’m not sure this is right for me because of x, y and Zed. Like trusting that they know and asking questions. And so I think for a lot of it is consent based marketing. So again, a lot of us are taught you just kind of like push something onto someone because that’s what it feels like, right? Like, feel like it’s kind of heavy being thrown at you, you kind of can’t get away from it, you know, especially sales conversations, I know that it used to be taught like, you know, don’t let someone off the call until they’ve made a decision that is so gross. Like, yeah, when have we ever done that? But apparently, that’s okay. So those kinds of things. So I’m always thinking about my client knows best. So then my job is to just hold space or to facilitate conversation to allow them to ask questions to make an informed choice. So I’m always asking things like, you know, the perfect samples I shared earlier with a DM Hey, you know, I saw that you’re interacting with this. Just wanted to ask if you had any questions. Were you interested in joining the workshop? Yes or No? Would you like me send information? Yes or No? Would you be comfortable getting on a call with me over zoom? Or would you prefer to chat here in DMS, select the answer. And then at each time, I’m asking consent, and that can that’s through the sales process. But even with your content, you can be asking for consent. What would you like to know about this program? Most people will tell you, and you can use like your data and analytics and things like that as well. And each time and kind of going out to show up serve sell to be thinking like, am I honoring the person in front of me? Am I honoring myself? And is there permission somewhere away for them to say yes, I like this, no, I don’t like this, yes, I want to be involved. No, I don’t want to be involved. I think there are like really simple changes. And then you can see if we go back to the conversation we’re having earlier about intention. So the intent is already set, which means the strategy is like, I’m just going to honor people and trust, they know the process. And I’m just going to show up, and I’m going to do these strategies, because I know that kind of, you know, work and then the tactics normally flow really nicely after that, and then normally more informed and it’s like, what actually, my, my community has told me, they love a countdown timer that starts at 70 to two hours until the course, you know, like ability to jump to course, because it’s only run twice a year. So I’m going to do that, but I’m not going to do it at the start. And you know, I’m going to put the unsubscribe link at the top. So they have the option to unsubscribe, if they don’t want to know about those emails, like all of the tactics, because of the intent, and then the results come out and they’re normally great. And again, you know, coming back to the well, you know, I might not see the results I want or the money that’s just not true. Like I like more every time I’ve kind of Lent more into my values and ethics. And really, like stripped back a lot of the crap we’ve been taught, I’ve normally had more successful financial, and the type of people that I’ve welcome into like a program or a course or a product, and I felt so good about it. And then they’ve had really good results, and then have gone out and shared the program I’ve been like just like loved every moment working with them, you know, miss them, if they don’t read join or anything like that, and the whole process and the whole time, like we’re just loving hard on each other, it’s like the best thing. And I really saw them as like, you know, a good friend and stuff like that. And so, again, I really want to challenge people that you can have a profitable and successful business and whatever shape or form that looks like to you doing these practices when you honor yourself and your honor others and when the intention is kind of set at the start just consent every time being like if I was on Instagram and got this message, how it made me feel what would i How would I want to respond to I have the option to not respond at all? Those kinds of things?

Hayley Maxwell  48:28

Yeah, absolutely. And I love how you talk about it, as you know, as honoring your your clients or honoring your potential clients. I just, yeah, it has such a nice feel to it as well, you know, thinking about it from from that perspective. And I think in terms of talking about stripping back some of the stuff that we’re taught, we need to have, actually, when you have a process that is less bloated, with, you know, a variety of tactics, it’s a lot more easeful, and it’s a lot more simplified, and it’s a lot less stress. And I think also on top of that, when you’re really clear and stand strong with your values. And you’re asking for consent as well. You know, you talked about the fact that, you know, you start to call the people in that are right for you as well. So I think by actually stripping things back and simplifying and honoring the people that you’re really wanting to work with that is going to call more of the kinds of people that you want to really support and help to you. And so you’re going to get that much better fit client who really values the perspectives that you hold and the strength and values that you stand in as well. So I think it really sort of comes together as a bit of that that kind of ecosystem and in a way

Rachel Kurzyp  49:56

Yeah, I think it’s a perfect example is lost You’re in September are tied all of my courses and programs. And now I only offer one one on one six month coaching program, which most people with my level experience in business and marketing are doing the opposite, right? Like, we all have the programs and all the things. And I’m not saying that My way is the right way at all. But it was right for me. And you’d be surprised at the response I got from my clients like, Oh, my God, you just have one program, do you know how good that is, or I just wanted to work with you in this way. This is like perfect. And it was so aligned. And the way that I feel the program is I sent out one simple email to past clients and people were thought to be interested it filled up within 72 hours. And then I went out again multiple times, and it filled up and there was no sales page. Of course, I had sales information, and we had calls and stuff like that. The reason why I’m sharing this is because at every point, it felt like I was going against what I’ve been taught, which is like, oh, no, I’m gonna retire, everything is really successful, because I just want to do this thing. And I know it’s gonna serve my clients, and both of us and really allow me to show up kind of surf and sail in a way that I want. Then I just did a really like on, like I said, on bloated, no bells and whistles strategy. And if I look at actually the all the times that I’ve sold, that it felt really good, I didn’t do all of the bells and whistles and all of that kind of stuff. And it works really well. And then each time I open up spots for the coaching program, I still have the strategies, I still have basic tactics, but I do it in a way that feels good for both of us. And again, it always feels. So sometimes you just need to go against what everyone’s telling you and trust that it’s going to work. And it might not work instantly, you know, I did have a large audience, I was already coaching. So I want to kind of premise that they didn’t just completely switch everything out. Like I already had quite a large reputation in this space. But I was nervous this entire time. And like what am I doing, I’m an idiot. I didn’t trust myself like I did. But in and the more I do it, the more I trust myself. And the more I feel like comfortable and confident to lean into kind of what I know to be true. So you know more of the story, like, do what’s right for you. But also ask your clients because you can be super surprised by like, hang on, you only need three emails from me to sign up like, Yeah, we don’t need the others Great. Get rid of them. Yeah, you know, you only want to see reels or you want like you want to know six weeks out that I’m going to launch something so you have time to save money. Great. I’ll share a message that says that. Like it’s just it can really be that simple. Because you’re talking to human beings. And sometimes we really are that simple. It doesn’t need to be complicated.

Hayley Maxwell  52:35

Yeah, that’s it. I think it’s something that I talk with my clients a lot with is about simplifying their their business and simplifying their offers, particularly, you know, from a messaging perspective, or also a copy perspective as well. As you know, there is this tendency to think we have to offer something for everyone, you know, we need to offer, you know, a higher tier priced item, we need to have something in the middle and something for the beginners and all these different price points. But actually, when we do that, we end up kind of diluting ourselves and we end up becoming known for nothing in particular.

Rachel Kurzyp  53:17

Yeah, I couldn’t agree more because then you write comes back to that flustered, overworked, unsure. Business Owner that’s getting told they need to add more, do more, be more don’t need to do be add any more than often the most simple businesses are the ones that are the best to run the most successful and that your clients enjoy the most as well. So again, you know, getting off that kind of hamster wheel can free you up to give you the space to be like, hang on, how do I want to do this? Like how do I want to feel like what am I really here trying to achieve? And again, those kind of big questions open up things like ethics and values, offer creation, all of that kind of stuff selling that we’ve talked about. And I think you just gotta like, for me anyways, overachiever do. Sometimes you just need to like slow down and give yourself permission to stop. So you can kind of really grow from like a strong point.

Hayley Maxwell  54:20

I do have three questions that I always like to ask my guests at the end. And the first is what does being fierce in business mean to you?

Rachel Kurzyp  54:31

For me recently, it means really just honoring myself first, having boundaries, taking care of myself. And then being really confident and clear when I do want to do something or don’t want to do something and no longer having to provide an explanation. I don’t have to tell you why I do or don’t do something and that includes working with clients, choosing do programs someone saying Why isn’t that tactic explain it to me, I don’t have to tell you anything. I’m making these decisions and people aren’t entitled to that. And so that’s what kind of fierce and being fierce and business feels like for me right now.

Hayley Maxwell  55:14

Yeah, I love that. Yeah. And what impact are you trying to make through your business,

Rachel Kurzyp  55:21

I’m trying to support my multi passionate business owners to really kind of, as everyone always says, carve their own path and kind of make business work in their own way. Because I do believe we need more like diverse voices, we need different ways of doing things that I know my clients are incredible human beings and the things that they’re working towards and doing and achieving is so good for them, their families, their communities, and society as a whole. And so I really see my spot, my place is to support them to do that, to show up serve, sell in a way that feels great to them, so that they can kind of do what they’ve said and decided that they want to do I’m simply there to support and guide them. So that’s what I’m trying to achieve.

Hayley Maxwell  56:08

Yeah, awesome. Yeah, that’s great. And what’s one piece of advice that you’ve been given? That’s made an impact on how you do business? Oh, that’s

Rachel Kurzyp  56:18

a good one. I think it was my friend. Recently, she was like, you wish is come across in this podcast? She’s like, Rachel, you know, what you can and can’t do you know, how you want to run business? Like you just know, like, you know it already? Like, why are you giving away your, you know, like autonomy, your power, like to somebody else, and letting them influence your decision, like, you know, and it was good, because it’s something again, I share with my clients all the time that I know, to be true, but I’d like forgotten. And sorry, that piece of advice was like, yes. And it just felt so good to hear, like I felt so seen in the moment and such simple advice. And again, it goes against a lot of what everyone else is sharing at the moment, which is you need x and get this and the secret. She was like, no, like, She’s literally was like, get rid of absolutely everything. And just go back to you. And then she’s like, build from there, because you’ve done it so many times. And each time it keeps getting better. So why wouldn’t you start there? I was like, such wholesome advice. I wish I wish I’d heard that like a year ago, but I appreciate her saying it now.

Hayley Maxwell  57:28

Yeah, I think you know, advice like that comes at the time when you kind of most need to hear it comes at that, right? Yeah. I love that. And so where can people come and find you, you know, if they’re keen to come and check you out, which I know they will be. So tell us all

Rachel Kurzyp  57:46

of come hang out on the Rachel Kurzyp show, which is my podcast where I dive into these topics from like ethics to tactics, to the ways I’m running my business that a lot of listeners say really inspire them to go out and do their own thinking and make changes. So if that’s kind of vibe, you’re wanting come out there. I also love a good damn conversations, you can come hang out with me on Instagram, if you want to talk about my dog, Pacey, or your dog or plants, or business in general. Otherwise, as always, you can go to my website, RachelKurzyp.com. Today, you get more information about my coaching program, some other products I have and kind of get an idea of like, where I’ve been, what I’m doing and other podcasts and things like that I’ve been on, if you’re wanting to kind of hear more and learn more about what I’ve been up to.

Hayley Maxwell  58:32

That’s awesome. And I’ll put all of those links and things into the show notes anyway, to make it nice and easy for people. But honestly, I have loved every minute of this conversation. And that’s probably why it’s gone on a little bit longer. So sorry about that. Yeah, thank you so much for sharing your knowledge and expertise and being so generous with your time and everything else. So thank you very much.

Rachel Kurzyp  58:56

My pleasure.

Hayley Maxwell  58:58

So that’s it for today’s episode. I really hope that you enjoyed it. I know that we covered a lot of ground during our conversation, but I’d really love to know what your thoughts are on it. Come on over to Instagram and let me know that you can find me at Hayley Maxwell writes. And as always, if you’ve enjoyed this episode, and want easy access to all future episodes when they drop, follow or subscribe to this podcast in your favorite podcast player, and until next time, go forth and be fierce



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